Questions re: Facial Dermarolling, Retin-A, CPs, VitC cleansers.

[Cleopatra]

Id like some advice regards Dermarolling my face if i may?......

Im 31yrs old and starting to see the 1st signs of ageing on my facial skin that id like to address with your dermarollers. My main issues are: dullness, fine lines (especially shallow little horizontal frown lines on my forehead), large pores, slightly bumpy texture & a slight loss of skin firmness.  I'd like to improve the appearance of my skin by brightening, smoothing, firming, treating fine lines & refining my large pores (i have a lot of very large pores).

I have oily-combo skin which is prone to slight clogs (comedones) but no active acne.

1). May you please advise as to which size dermaroller i should choose? (Im purchasing the 1.5mm dermaroller and 1.5mm one line roller for the deep stretchmarks on my tummy. Im presuming they would be too long for use on the face for my issues? Or could i use the same 1.5mm roller on my stomach stretchmarks AND face? (an attempt to save money! not sure if this is a good idea!).

2). a) Is Retin-A totally necessary to achieve noticeable positive results with dermarolling? - (I tried using retin-a last year and my skin became very very sore, despite only using a tiny amount of the lowest concentration every 3 days. I stuck with it for 2 months but it dried my skin up so bad it was cracking, despite drowning myself in moisturisers & oils, and it actually CAUSED a few fine lines! Im nervous about using it again - especially if its effects are magnified by the dermarolling process. However, if retin-a is an extremely important part of the dermarolling anti-aging/brightening/smoothing facial treatment is there any way of limiting the irritation caused by it, by buffering it somehow perhaps?  )

     b) Can the Infadolan cream be used alone, instead of retin-a? Would the positive results of dermarolling  be noticeably hampered by just using Retinyl Acetate, rather than Tretinoin?

c) If Retin-a is used: is the 0.025% strength sufficient for optimum results, rather than the stronger concentrations? And: When should Retin-A be used? - every day, or just immediately prior to dermarolling, or...?

3). a) Are Copper Peptides necessary to achieve the results im looking for with dermarolling?  I see a lot of people are using them with the dermarollers, but im not clear on what purpose they serve?

      b) Could CPs be used in place of Tretinoin, perhaps, to avoid potential skin irritation?

      c) How often should CPs be used? Just after each dermarolling session, or nightly?

4). Vitamin C - Would a MAP serum be suitable for use whilst dermarolling, or does it have to be the L-Ascorbic Acid version of vitamin C?

      b) When should Vit C be applied? Is it straight before or straight after treatment? Or every day?

      c) How should you treat your skin prior to application of the VitC? I cant seem to find a cleanser or cleansing wipes that dont contain at least some oil in the ingredients - Ive heard Vit C is water soluble and any oil in the skin will prevent it being absorbed. Do you cleanse your skin with regular cleanser (containing some oil) and then wipe with pure alcohol to strip the skin's oil away before applying the VitC? This is what i was going to do on my stomach but im wondering if this wouldnt be rather irritating to delicate facial skin?

Sorry for so many questions and thanks so much in advance for your response. I just want to get everything clear in my head before embarking on this new regime. Thanks. xxx

[Firefox7275]

Many of the issues you describe could the result of dehydration and underlying sensitivity. Do you consistently meet or exceed all your government's recommendations for healthy eating? What products are you using at present - any sulphate surfactants, astringents or other known irritants? Retin-A cannot cause ageing, it can trigger mild dermatitis or dry out the skin such that fine lines appear but this is reversible. What did your dermatologist say about the problems you experienced with Retin-A? You do not need to use copper peptides, Retin-A or ascorbic acid, all can be pretty harsh. Retin-A and ascorbic acid need to be at an acidic pH to be absorbed/ effective so you cannot buffer, you can use MAP and a gentler vitamin A derivative such as  retinol or retinyl palmitate.

For the general skincare questions you would be best to do plenty of research through forums such as Skincaretalk or Essentialdayspa, this will answer many questions you have not even thought of!

[Cleopatra]

Hi Firefox. Thanks for your response.

I do certainly eat very healthfully - far exceeding my 5 vegeatable servings a day! I also eat plenty of lean protein, and low-medium amount of starchy carbs (low processed carbs). I dont think the problems lie within my diet.

My problems are really just generally what naturally comes with ageing, i believe.  I actually look young for my age, but i have noticed a slight decline in my skin firmness, a lack of the 'glow' i used to have and the beginnings of fine lines (horizontal frown lines on my forhead specifically, and a deepening of the nasolabial fold) so i feel i want to nip those ageing issues in the bud early, before they become more obvious.  Ive always had issues with large pores, congestion & oily skin (i believe its genetic as my mum still has large pores and oily skin at 60 yrs old), but i havent had an acne flairup for a long while.

The products ive been using are mostly from SkinActives.com - their T-Zone Serum, Twilight (Retinyl Acetate) Cream & Lets Make Collagen Serum.  My skin seems to like these products and is clearer than its been for a long time, but i feel like i need to add something else to my regime to address the fine lines, large pores & dullness to better effect.  I also use LRP Toleriane DermoCleanser alternated with Ponds Cool Cucumber Makeup remover, followed by Simple Spotless Skin Wipes (with zinc) to remove makeup and cleanse (or just the Simple wipes if im not wearing makeup).

You mentioned that i could use MAP and Retinol or Retinyl Palmitate instead of L-Ascorbic Acid and Retin-A.  Would these gentler versions of Vit C and Vit A still have the same positive effects for anti-ageing on the skin?

Regards my prior Retin-A use it certainly did cause wrinkles, which are still fine lines to this day. I believe it was from how dehydrated and dry it made my skin, despite my drowning myself in oils, moisturisers etc to combat the soreness and dryness. Granted the wrinkles did soften in time after i stopped using retin-a, but theyre still there as fine lines, hence my nervousness to use retin-a again.

[SarahVaughter]

>1). May you please advise as to which size dermaroller i should choose?

 

To improve the skin texture of your face, start with a 0.5 mm dermaroller  (twice a week on the same skin area.)

  You could use the 1.5 mm roller on your face as well but rolling your abdomen to improve stretch marks and sagging skin is quite a large area and you need a sharp dermaroller for that. If you use it also on your face, it will get blunt sooner.

 



>2). a) Is Retin-A totally necessary to achieve noticeable positive results with >dermarolling?

 

No, it is not necessary to achieve results. Some people cannot use Retin-A because it irritates their skin.  

  Tretinoin (Retin A) is useful in certain skin conditions such as acne prone skin, hyperpigmentation, stretch marks, sun-damaged skin and dull skin, provided it doesn’t dry out or irritate the skin.

 



>b) Can the Infadolan cream be used alone, instead of retin-a?

 

These two products are not interchangeable. Infadolan is indented for dermarolling aftercare. It protects the dermarolled skin. In your case, you should use it after rolling your stretch marks with the 1.5 mm one liner dermaroller or your abdomen with the regular 1.5 mm roller.

 

  You do not have to use it after rolling your face with short-needled rollers such as a 0.5 mm roller but keep the skin moisturized.

   

>3). a) Are Copper Peptides necessary to achieve the results im looking for with >dermarolling?

  Dermarolling works all by itself so nothing else is necessary to get results. Our products (mainly vitamins) are an additional help to enhance those results.

You should keep the skin well moisturized after dermarolling. That is important.

 

 

  >4). Vitamin C - Would a MAP serum be suitable for use whilst dermarolling, or does

>it have to be the L-Ascorbic Acid version of vitamin C?

     

  Non-acidic forms of vit. C failed to increase ascorbic acid levels in the skin:

“Derivatives of ascorbic acid including magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl-6-palmitate, and dehydroascorbic acid did not increase skin levels of L-ascorbic acid.”



https://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11207686

It doesn’t prove that it had no effect on collagen production since this was not studied but further studies are necessary to find out. So keep using the acidic form (ascorbic acid) as well since this form did increase the levels in the skin.

 

 

>c) How should you treat your skin prior to application of the VitC?

 

Do not use alcohol, it dries out the skin too much.

  I wash my face with a little bit of diluted shower gel, rinse it off with tap water, I pour vit. C serum on a cotton pad and apply it to my face. About half an hour later I sprinkle a cotton pad with tap water, add some almond oil and apply it to my face.

If you do not use very oily daily creams, you can apply vit. C without wiping the oils off your skin first.

 

 

Your other questions are more or less answered here:

  https://http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/Best-Skin-Care-RoutineD/a>

[Firefox7275]

Cleopatra;2778 wrote: Hi Firefox. Thanks for your response.

I do certainly eat very healthfully - far exceeding my 5 vegeatable servings a day! I also eat plenty of lean protein, and low-medium amount of starchy carbs (low processed carbs). I dont think the problems lie within my diet.

My problems are really just generally what naturally comes with ageing, i believe.  I actually look young for my age, but i have noticed a slight decline in my skin firmness, a lack of the 'glow' i used to have and the beginnings of fine lines (horizontal frown lines on my forhead specifically, and a deepening of the nasolabial fold) so i feel i want to nip those ageing issues in the bud early, before they become more obvious.  Ive always had issues with large pores, congestion & oily skin (i believe its genetic as my mum still has large pores and oily skin at 60 yrs old), but i havent had an acne flairup for a long while.

The products ive been using are mostly from SkinActives.com - their T-Zone Serum, Twilight (Retinyl Acetate) Cream & Lets Make Collagen Serum.  My skin seems to like these products and is clearer than its been for a long time, but i feel like i need to add something else to my regime to address the fine lines, large pores & dullness to better effect.  I also use LRP Toleriane DermoCleanser alternated with Ponds Cool Cucumber Makeup remover, followed by Simple Spotless Skin Wipes (with zinc) to remove makeup and cleanse (or just the Simple wipes if im not wearing makeup).

You mentioned that i could use MAP and Retinol or Retinyl Palmitate instead of L-Ascorbic Acid and Retin-A.  Would these gentler versions of Vit C and Vit A still have the same positive effects for anti-ageing on the skin?

Regards my prior Retin-A use it certainly did cause wrinkles, which are still fine lines to this day. I believe it was from how dehydrated and dry it made my skin, despite my drowning myself in oils, moisturisers etc to combat the soreness and dryness. Granted the wrinkles did soften in time after i stopped using retin-a, but theyre still there as fine lines, hence my nervousness to use retin-a again.

I asked about diet as this is part of my work role and I see very few clients who meet all the recommendations for health ... but you are already ahead of the pack. Are you getting plenty of essential fatty fatty acids, especially long chain omega-3s? I think I have posted my reservations about wipes and skin health on another forum so will not reiterate.

Not disputing that ageing is contributing but dehydration can make those fine lines visible years earlier than they should be, I speak from experience! Genetics is certainly relevant but sometimes not in the way you expect. My mother had oily skin when younger and I had a greasy T-zone ... turns out we are both sensitive to sulphate surfactants. Retin-A honestly does not cause ageing, what you can see on the surface is a symptom not a diagnosis and you do not know what is taking place at the cellular level. Dehydration and/ or mild dermatitis can have much the same appearance as ageing - many in their late teens and early twenties claim the same thing from benzoyl peroxide overuse, and there are children with body 'wrinkles' from years of eczema! The skin is a highly complex organ: the stratus corneum should be holding water in and keeping chemicals and other environmental assaults out, but once you have damaged the barrier it can be a challenge to get that functioning optimally again.

Retinol is not equivalent to retinoic acid because it is the precursor and conversion is not 100%, but it is a viable alternative for those of us starting anti-ageing treatment early. Really it depends what you are looking for, whether you think the risks outweigh the benefits or vice versa - I for one am not willing to live with flaky and irritated skin. I would note some of the recent research into retinol is being conducted by the big names in skincare so one has to be aware of bias, on the other hand these studies are being published in reputable journals.

www.nature.com/jid/journal/v105/n4/pdf/5610741a.pdf

https://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22206079

https://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699641/?tool=pubmed

https://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2921764/?tool=pubmed

Magnesium ascorbyl phosphate does not have equivalent function to L-AA, but it is not necessarily inferior and there is plenty of overlap.

https://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8489778

https://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18503473

https://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19159387

https://http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12060469

HTH!