What type of scars is the needle-suctioning method for? And what's the downtime?

[user886]

Hello,

I am intrigued by the suctioning method and am considering purchasing the items needed to perform this procedure.  I just have a few questions.

Is there a difference between subcision-suctioning and needle-suctioning? I've seen the subcision term thrown around a lot but I don't know if there's a difference between the two.  I needled a few acne scars in the past with diabetic lancets and have seen some minor improvement.  I haven't needled in over a year but I am looking to try it again to hopefully improve the appearance of these scars some more.  It sounds like I would just needle the scars as I usually do then use that suction item you sell every day after for a week then every other day for the second week, correct?

What is the typical downtime associated with this?  And by downtime I mean how long will I be carrying a very unsightly mark or bruise on my face.  When I just needled, I believe I just had to steer clear of the public for a few days until the scabs came off then there was some redness for a week or two.

What type of scars is the suctioning most useful for?

What other products should I purchase to use in conjunction with this method?

[SarahVaughter]

Hollow or knife shaped needles such as diabetic lancets are totally unsuitable for microneedling.

Subcision is a different and much more traumatic procedure than needling. Subcision means going horizontally underneath the scar with a thick needle and cutting the fibers under the scar.
Needling means pricking the skin vertically with a very thin needle.

The suction method (and downtime) is explained here. Please read the entire thread:

https://http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/subcision-suction-method-for-acne-scars

https://http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/how-much-bruising-with-suction-method/

"Officially" only the rolling type of acne scars are tethered to the underlying structures but I also recommend suctioning for stubborn boxcar scars that has not improved after about one year of microneedling. It is worth trying.

[cj123]

The subcision method is usually performed by a doctor. It requires freezing of the skin and they sometimes have to go quite deep if there are a lot of tethers. I had this done by a doctor and he used a hyperdermic needle to perform the procedure. They go in horizontally and basically wiggle the needle back and forth so that the sharp edge can cut the tethers underneath the skin. Some scars are really deeply tethered so in order to see success with the dermarolling/ stamping this might have to be done first.

I noticed a big improvement in the lifting of the skin when this was done. And now I use the dermastamp every four weeks to fill in the rest of the skin. I've also started suctioning every couple of days. The right diet is also important for new collagen to form. Plenty of protein, zinc, Vit C, are necessary for good healing.

[user886]

Hollow, knife shaped needles such as diabetic lancets are totally unsuitable for microneedling.

The suction method (and downtime) is explained here. Please read the entire thread:

https://http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/subcision-suction-method-for-acne-scars

https://http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/how-much-bruising-with-suction-method/

"Officially" only the rolling type of acne scars are tethered to the underlying structures but I also recommend suctioning for stubborn boxcar scars that has not improved after about one year of microneedling. It is worth trying.

What's wrong with the diabetic lancets? I was using the BD ultra fine 33 gauge lancets.  I have definitely seen improvement from this.  How are the needles you sell different/better?

I'll probably just needle the small scars and try suctioning the boxscar

[user886]

The subcision method is usually performed by a doctor. It requires freezing of the skin and they sometimes have to go quite deep if there are a lot of tethers. I had this done by a doctor and he used a hyperdermic needle to perform the procedure. They go in horizontally and basically wiggle the needle back and forth so that the sharp edge can cut the tethers underneath the skin. Some scars are really deeply tethered so in order to see success with the dermarolling/ stamping this might have to be done first.

I noticed a big improvement in the lifting of the skin when this was done. And now I use the dermastamp every four weeks to fill in the rest of the skin. I've also started suctioning every couple of days. The right diet is also important for new collagen to form. Plenty of protein, zinc, Vit C, are necessary for good healing.

Oh that sounds pretty intense.  My scars aren't too deep so I probably won't go the subcision route.  I'll just needle them.

Is the dermastamp better than single needling do you think?

After you suction, how does your skin look and for how long?  I'm trying to get a good idea of how much time ill have to spend hiding from the public after this.

Yeah I get a ton of protein and take zinc and vitamin c every day.

[SarahVaughter]

A lancet needle is a small knife.  Their purpose is to cut the very tough skin of the finger to draw blood for glucose monitoring. And they are shaped to maximise bloodflow, cutting sideways through the skin.

This shape is unsuitable for subtle microneedling. The shape of lancet needles is suitable for subcision but not for needling. (BTW I have always advised against performing subcision at home, only needling).

Needles for needling have a conic shape with a very long taper and their length does not exceed 2 mm.  Dermarollers also have conically shaped needles.

Cactus needles are the right shape for needling, however they are too brittle and could easily break off inside the skin.

[user886]

Oh ok that makes sense.  I guess I'll purchase the single needles you sell as well as the suction thing.  What else (if anything) do I need in terms of the essentials?

Also, some of the scars I want to needle are on the nose.  They are really small but still bug me, especially one of them.  I had heard that you shouldn't needle scars on the nose and that it can make them worse?  Is this true?  I needled these scars many times in the past with those diabetic lancets and saw nothing but improvement

[cj123]

After you suction, how does your skin look and for how long?  I'm trying to get a good idea of how much time ill have to spend hiding from the public after this.

I  suction each area about 8-10 times at 2 seconds each. My skin will be slightly pink and elevated for about 20 minutes and then go back to normal. Recently I must have either counted wrong and done too many passes or left the suction on too long because the areas got really red and have stayed moderately pinkish/purplish for a couple of days. I know this will go away and can be covered by makeup but it's still annoying. So beware of being too enthusiastic like I was and take it slow to see how your skin handles it 

[user886]

After you suction, how does your skin look and for how long?  I'm trying to get a good idea of how much time ill have to spend hiding from the public after this.

I  suction each area about 8-10 times at 2 seconds each. My skin will be slightly pink and elevated for about 20 minutes and then go back to normal. Recently I must have either counted wrong and done too many passes or left the suction on too long because the areas got really red and have stayed moderately pinkish/purplish for a couple of days. I know this will go away and can be covered by makeup but it's still annoying. So beware of being too enthusiastic like I was and take it slow to see how your skin handles it 

Oh wow you suction each scar 8-10 times?  Thanks for the heads up, I'll try to be careful.

[SarahVaughter]

I will paste here the relevant part from our instructions:

"Scars on the nose All invasive skin treatments on the nose are risky because this area reacts and heals unpredictable and it can end up worse. You can try a 1 mm dermastamp but never perform any aggressive stamping here. Start slowly and try one small area first."

This does of course not mean that it will always heal worse. It means some people will get improvement, some get no improvement and no worsening and some may theoretically end up worse. The nose has cartilage just below the skin and this (or something else) may be the reason why the skin on the nose sometimes heals badly after invasive skin procedures.

Always do a test patch first.

[user886]

Ok and what products do I need? And when would I apply them?

[SarahVaughter]

What skin condition do you plan to treat?

[user886]

What skin condition do you plan to treat?

Acne scars.  Specifically a shallow box scar (I think), a small rolling or box scar on the nose, a small line indented scar on my forehead and maybe some little ones on the nose.  I have needled them all before using those diabetic lancets like I said earlier.  But I haven't done so in over a year.  Their appearance has improved a bit since then but the progress has seemed to come to a standstill.  I was looking to try it again this time using the needles you sell which you say are better so hopefully I'll get even better results.

I'm in college so I'll probably wait and do it during spring break because of the likely scabs and redness I'll be dealing with.

I'm still debating whether or not I should suction as well.  I am intrigued by it but I don't want to deal with prolonged redness and such that would last past my spring break.

But which products (if any) should I apply before and/or after needling?  I do have sensitive skin and I've tried retin a before and that stuff made my skin incredibly red and irritated

[SarahVaughter]

I recommend the single needles and Infadolan ointment for dermaneedling aftercare. As I mentioned above, you must be extra careful on the nose area.

[user886]

I recommend the single needles and Infadolan ointment for dermaneedling aftercare. As I mentioned above, you must be extra careful on the nose area.

So I don't need copper peptides or vitamin c?