Subcision-suction method for acne scars

[SarahVaughter]

No, the saline solution method is not a temporary solution. The saline solution (also called a physiological solution) consists of water and a little NaCl (table salt) and it is normally present in the body. It doesn't serve as a filler because the "bump" that forms when you inject it absorbed within hours. You just inject water under the scar, that is all.

It serves the same purpose as the suction method - to stretch out the fibrotic bands that tether the scar down and make it indented and to trigger collagen production.  It is injected straight after a subcision or needling.

https://http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/Saline-injections-for-acne-scars

By the way, Hyaluronic acid (Restylane) is also normally present in the body and the fillers from hyaluronic acid would also last mere hours. That is why the hyaluronic acid in the fillers is crosslinked, which makes it much longer lasting.

[boafriend]

Is it possible for what looks like improvement...to go away?

I suctioned for 1 week after my last dermastamping session but stopped after 1 week because I couldn't deal with the redness (I was studying for finals and meeting with people to study too). After stopping I noticed (and asked Sarah) about what appeared to be criss cross marks in my stamped & suctioned area....pretty much what looked like new skin. I experienced very mild peeling afterwards...and then the dents I had looked like they have improved by a bit. Upon touch, the area definitely felt smoother and less indented. I was excited.

But about last week I noticed my dents looked like they were going back to normal. Touch wise, I felt like they dented in again. Am I delusional or is this really something?

Thanks

[cesamaddict]

After reading the extensive entries on this thread, I just wanted to make sure that we are supposed to purposely cause light bruising.  Is this correct?

[SarahVaughter]

Well, in the suction study, the suctioning resulted in hemorrhages:

https://http://www.owndoc.com/pdf/therapy-in-treatment-of-atrophic-acne-scars.pdf

But they performed the suctioning shortly after the subcision and subcision is a very aggressive procedure that takes many days to heal. I do not think it is necessary to produce bruises for the suctioning method to work (to release the fibers that tether the scar).

[Sylvania]

Thanks for sharing this method with us Sarah and everybody else to share your experiences.

Single-needling a depressed scar vertically (''mini - subcision'') can defenitely help, especially if you add something like suctioning afterwards. But everyone's skin is different, so some people might not respond as well as others.

I have some depressed acne scars (rolling and boxcar ) and also want to try the subcision + suctioning treatment on myself, i’ll report back.

By the way,  It might be interesting to tell that i did an treatment for my cellulite actually called the same: subcision.
They told me that the idea behind this treatment was to cut bands  that were causing my dimples. It gave me around 70 % improvement (not kidding) and  i’m thinking that if they added suctioning afterwards the treatment would have been even more effective… but are the cellulite bands (Septa  was their name i thought) comparable with the fibrous acne bands?

In cellulite, the Septa surrounds  fat cells in the fat layer of our skin to keep them in place,  i believe, and the cellulite arises when the septa tighten down on the fat cells, due to things like certain genes, hormones and eating too much greasy things. 
But why are there downward pulling bands in depressed (acne) scars then. I mean, why do they develop?

[boafriend]

Hi Sarah, I was wondering if you could give me a response to my above posted questions/experience?

I'm really down right now. I felt I was finally seeing improvement, and BAM - my scars went back to normal state.

Thanks so much.

[SarahVaughter]

Yes, I believe that subcision can help cellulite. I have written about septa and cellulite here:
 
https://http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/what-to-do-about-cellulite/

Scars are often tethered to the underlying structures. During the formation of a scar, everything is "glued together" by scar tissue. Later, during the maturation of the scar, the part of scar tissue that connects it to the underlying structures should be reabsorbed and the scar should be "freed" but it does not always happen.

When you for example injure yourself or when you have chronically inflamed acne, the primary goal of the body is to fix it and to fix it quickly and efficiently to prevent infections etc. Gluing everything together is probably the quickest way and our body is not concerned with appearance of the scar.

However, not every scar is tethered.

To Boafriend: You just have to be more patient. We have customers who have been struggling with acne scars for over a year and they eventually succeeded. It is not realistic to try suctioning once and immediately expect permanent results.

[cj123]

I was on another forum and they mentioned these silicone suction cups. You only have to squeeze the cups to create suction. Looks interesting and they're only $25.00 plus $15.00 shipping.

They say to move the cups around on moist or wet skin instead of keeping it in one place. This is supposed to prevent the red marks that can happen when skin is suctioned.  Reading what they say makes me more confident that it's not harmful to stretch facial skin. I haven't tried cupping yet because I was afraid the stretched skin would stay loose. These cups are made especially for the face.

Here's the link. https://http://www.ib3health.com/products/SuctionCupping/SiliconeFacialCup.asp

They have another cup set and they have a special pump for scars. This creates a large amount of pressure to draw skin up. I think this one sounds very interesting since it's made especially for use on scars.

https://http://www.ib3health.com/products/SuctionCupping/FacialCupping.asp

[Ayame]

Sarah, don't u mean with gluing everything together just the adhesion development that can happen after trauma?

https://http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-internal-scar-tissue.htm

[SarahVaughter]

Thank you, cj123, for you suggestions.

@Ayame:

Yes, I do mean an adhesion. Obviously, an adhesion after for example a C-section can cause serious problems whereas the adhesion in acne scars is just a cosmetic problem. Esthetically, if the scar adheres to the underlying structures, releasing it will improve the indentation.

[Dewydewey]

Hi All,

I just single needled a small depressed scar on my cheek today and will begin the suctioning method again. I see some mild improvement from when I used the derma stamp combined with suctioning.  I have decided though to single needle the depressed scars (once a month), roll with my .5 mm twice a week, suction and see what results these give.....

What are your experiences and results?

[jwaduveev]

I'm two weeks post-subcision and using a PMD Personal Microdem machine without the exfoliating disc for suction (available on Amazon for $120 to $160) . Although it's kind of pricey, between my acne scars and stretch marks, I'm sure I'll get plenty of use out of it so decided it was worth the money. It has worked beautifully so far, but some of the reviewers commented that their machine lost suction power after a relatively short period.

The PMD does a good job of pulling the skin up, and I can slide it around on my face so don't have to suction each scar individually. I targeted a couple of the deeper scars individually and was able to create a small hematoma, which I felt was beneficial based on the study. I think using the PMD may have have also extended the bruising period slightly, which I also feel good about because I feel more confident that the tethers are not quickly re-attaching. I started 24 hours after the subcision, made one pass the first day and then increased to 2 passes twice a day the second day and three passes three times a day the third day and onward. I plan to continue the suctioning for another week. Although that's slightly more aggressive than the study, I felt it was justified due to the suction power being lower than the professional machine used in the study.

Although it's too soon to tell the long-term outcome, at this point I'm seeing a 60 to 70 % improvement. Having spent thousands of dollars on a painful laser resurfacing with an extremely long recovery and some permanent discolorations but almost no improvement, so far, I'm thrilled!

[jwaduveev]

One other comment - although my skin got quite red during the suctioning, the redness faded within ten minutes and did not leave round marks as reported by some who used suction cups. Also,  despite having a tendency towards broken capillaries, I didn't see any form. 

The PMD is small,  lightweight, and easy to use. It fits comfortably in one hand, leaving the other hand free to hold the skin taught. It travels well, which was important to me as I was heading out on a two-week vacation shortly after the subcision.

Lastly, I have no connection to the company that makes the PMD, so my comments are not biased and represent my own personal experience. As Sarah frequently remains us, everyone's skin reacts differently...

[SarahVaughter]

Thank you, jwaduveev, for taking time to describe your experience. Please keep us up-to-date occasionally.

[mila]

Hey everyone! Just a little back story, I have deep rolling scars all over my face, and I've been stamping for the past 3 months now with the 1.5 dermastamp, single needle, and I just started with the 2mm stamp. I am liking the results, little as they are, but still something!

Anywho!I just brought a suction device from ebay like so: and was wondering exactly How long I should hold the cup on the different sections of my face. It sucks up the skin really strongly in the dome and makes it round, but for how many seconds should I do this and how often in a session... kind of freaky to see my skin strech like that O_o... but anyway, thanks for any help!

Mila